"Which might have been unprofessional but come on...."

Kind of a disgusting way to justify the Marine's murder of women and children? Killing unarmed innocent civilians in cold blood while being armed to the teeth and in uniform is not only cowardly but sowing terror as well, i.e. terrorism.

Try being sent to a hostile environment yourself and get back to us on that one, Ty. Being in the midst of it all is considerably more horrifying than your position of Armchair General.

were U there.. do u really know the circumstances.. and which of the many wars did you fight in..

Seriously if u r not happy in this country go somewhere else

Seems to me the standards were established in Nuremberg. All soldiers, especially Americans have certain standards they need to uphold, beyond that we become jackbooted thugs.

There are no winners here that's for sure. I would point out that wars today aren't much different then wars in past. Civilian killings do happen, as does rape, theft, etc.. Today it's just more difficult to get away with. I think we would all agree this is not right.

However, when you're fighting in the military YOU FOLLOW orders. It does appear this guy is being used as a scapegoat. He'll live with this for the rest of his life and that won't be easy.

Actually, Ty, Lord Foxdrake makes a very sensible, measured argument here. Did you even read his post, or are you just not intelligent enough to grasp the particulars of the situation? Clearly, command got it wrong, and told the marines it was a hostile house. They followed orders and fired on it, later finding out that unarmed civilians were inside. A tradegy? Yes, of course. Horrific and tragic. But not deliberate - that's the point. It's also easy to judge other people from your little bubble, but to actually imagine what goes on inside the human mind when it thinks it is moments away from death - you'll do nearly anything to stay alive. Instinct takes over. One of their men was killed by an IED, they were told the house was hostile, they fired on it. End of story. It is sad that command got it wrong, but to say we're justifying the murder of women and children by simply trying to give the situation proper context is a bit ignorant.

So, Trust 2112, you like the fact that anon thinks they are judge, jury and executioner? And that they take it upon themselves to mete out "punishment"? Like Lord Foxdrake states, we were not there. This case seems to be life imitating art, vis-a-vis them movie "A Few Good Men", where the brass is scapegoating a soldier to save themselves.

These individuals are very lucky that they are screwing around with the United States, screw with some of the other countries of the world and you will wake up with your testicles in a jar by your bed.

Really, You are all gonig to try to justify this? Are any of you veterans? I am, and if you are, you know that regardless of wartime or peace time, any order that is followed that is an unreasonable order, or will cost the loss of civilian life is to be denied and reported. Those who knowingly follow orders that are against Geneva convention rules are to be tried and punished to the full extent of the UCMJ. These soldiers slaughtered unarmed civilian non combatant wwomen and children. They knew they were unarmed prior to opening fire. They were not firing from afar, some of these women were shot execution style, which can not be done from "afar". anyone trying to justify the actions taken by this group of soldiers needs their head examined. It is well known and documented, and all have admitted their guilt, that this was wrong in every sense of the word.

bscol just asking that question tells me you really dont get what they are about.

were you there Ty?

Mr. Johnson,

Those Marines had just been hit with a roadside bomb. In this war it is almost impossible to tell the enemy from the innocent civillians, as they don't wear uniforms, and hide amongst the population to use them as human shields. I find no fault with the Marines doing an almost impossible job...one of trying to provide a safe and secure world, free from the scum of the earth who use suicide bombs and terrorize their own people into helping them. Have you seen what these "people" do to our troops who get captured? Gitmo is nothing compared to the torture inflicted by these terrorists.

Am I saddened by the fact that innocent women and children died? Of course I am! Do I blame the Marines? NO! It is a sad fact of life that in war, innocents die. It's not as if we go out of our way to shoot women and children.

Kyle- lots of Marines have posted that he was wrong and lots of Marines disagree strongly with your position. More is expected of our soldiers than to act like the Taliban.

I disagree with Anonymous because they are nothing but a bunch of cowards. They back down when they should stand strong, they hide behind their computers and their masks, etc. all that says is that you lack the strength of your convictions and it's them in the same place as bullies.

I was only following orders - where have we all heard THAT excuse before?

Shooting infants is just a part of war? All of you trying to defend Wuterich would agree with that I'm sure, because the Marines killed a 1-year-old.

Glen, they haven't risked their lives for freedom since WWII. If they're out murdering families they deserve to be lynched.

Hey Ryan in Texas...I speak Japanese.

@lordfoxdrake that was the marine's defense, but in actuality one of his men had been killed by a roadside bomb, they went to the local people living on that street who all said they didnt know anything about it, even though the area was in clear view, so they went insurgent-huntin all down the street and killed over 20 ppl, including, women, children and disabled elderly, no command from anyone ever, be it the president or the on the ground commander, ever legalizes running into civilian homes killing noncombatants, every soldier knows that. this was about rage and revenge

This case... as was the recent video of "pissing on" the dead bodies of dead insergents is the act of degenerates.

If you are a soldier - you know just how screwed up commanders can be. You have a job to do, hopefully - you never get to the point enjoying it.

I've met some guys who get "wood" from killing. Needless to say... normal folks don't want to go on missions with them.

Oh, and ryan, I speak German, and so did my Great Uncle, he went to a school where German was the FIRST language, in Central MN, before 1910.

agreed, the US military is the best in the world because its the most professional in the world, these guys are a disgrace to a great institution, and all the soldiers here who feel the need to stick up for murderers out of solidarity need to rethink what kind of soldier they are or want to be

Kyle317 - you are talking to people who are comfortably typing on their computers in safety.

People who have no idea what it is like for an IUD to go off and kill one of their buddies right in front of them.

I have heard no evidence that they killed the kids or the women "execution style". I'm sure they thought the insurgents were in those houses and just fired into them.

They may have even been told that there were hostiles in those houses, or mistook another marines fire for enemy fire.

Friendly fire happens, and that isn't the intent either. No marine wants to shoot another marine. But yet, in all the confusion, it happens.

This isn't a game folks. There is no mini-map to show you where there friendlies and enemies are.

These days, the enemies don't even wear uniforms, and going back to Vietnam - women and children are used in attacks or as bombs.

I wish it wasn't this way. I'm sure all the marines in this incident feel terrible for the victims.

But the fault lies with those cowards who lay the IUDs. The fault lies with those that hide behind kids to fight. They risk the lives of civilians - our marines do everything they can to not hurt the innocent.

But war is HELL.

And bad things happen to good people...

Ryan would like to go back to the days of carpet bombing entire cities regardless of how many innocent people are killed because that's how you win wars damnit!

Ryan- you claim that no one understands what's its like to be in that situation, so we can't judge. Then you say... We need the days before the 4th Geneva convention, so we wouldnt have to worry abut rules of engagement and that way our soliders could kill civilians and not get in trouble. So let me ask you... Since you seem so big on stating that a person can't understand a soldier killing a civilian in a time of war level stress... Do you understand what it's like for your family to be gunned down for no reason or fault of your own just because some solider panics?!

I guess you can't because you just write that off as bad stuff happens in war. Deal with it you say because... Oh that's right,,, it wasnt your family that got shot.

@ Ryan

An IUD in the road? Was someone afraid the road was going to get pregnant and have a baby road?

We must beware of any Intra Uterine Devices preventing unwanted road pregnancies!

@ Anonymous

A vigilante by any other name is still a vigilante. I was going to equate you with the KKK until I realized that, since you are a snivelling coward without the balls to do your lynching in the open. The KKK is far better than you.

I make no excuses for the killing of innocents, and some of the marines were convicted of revenge killing. However, unless I was there. Unless I am on the jury listening to the evidence. Unless I am the one that has to walk in their shoes and confront what they confronted, I will not be second guessing the finding of the court and what these guys dealt with at the time.

If we really want to be outraged, be outraged that so many of our young men and women were killed and injured, so many iraqis were killed and wounded, and our economy was destroyed based on absolutely fraudulent pretenses.

Those that brought us this war enriched themselves and their friends enormously at our financial expense and at the expense of those that had to pay the ultimate price of their lives. Where is justice for that?

Here's a question - see if anybody's got the balls to give me a serious answer: WHY are so many comments supporting the Marines "collapsed by the community"? Are we that afraid of dissenting opinions?

trust...There were no IED's, no Jewish sniperss, no Jewish suicide bombers, nothing, when the Nazi's exterminated thousands..only criteria the Nazi's used to kill them was that they were Jewish. Young, elderly, women, children..as long as they were Jewish or sympathizers. Following orders in the midst of bloody combat and following orders to exterminate non threatening and docile captives, dumping them in mass graves after taking their eyeglasses, jewelry and prying the filling from their teeth.... And those tried and convicted at Neurenberg were primarily the ones who GAVE those orders. You can't draw a comparison, no matter how you put it. Maybe you should enlist and go over there and be the first man in the door. Oh, and RIP.

@stonecold because its too easy to collapse comments

@hdrider i see the point you're trying to make but you said lynching black people in public is braver and better than putting up an anoying graphic on someone's website and leaking emails

@ryan they didnt see a bomb go off and then run into houses, they came back that night, while people were sleeping and busted into homes firing at will, did they think that the whole street, every house they happened to run into was full of insurgents sitting there all day waiting for them to come back and run in? two dozen scattered through numerous homes? and when it was all said and done there were 0 insurgents killed, all civs, i understand your point that war is hell and frankly its better to shoot a innocent than get shot by a insurgent, but there was nothing legit about this raid, it was- "the bomb went off here, so lets kill a bunch of people here, and maybe next time they wont plant bombs if they know that the whole street is gonna get offed". it was revenge, and it was rage, not duty

@ Franco Relaxo

1) Lynching and murdering Blacks isn't the only thing kkk does. They also lynch and murder any Whites that don't support them. Or burn the property (with or without people inside) of anyone they deem in need of reeducation in the proper treatment of kkk members. etc., etc.

2) The point you missed is that the kkk does their evil out in the open, whereas anonymous doesn't have the balls to do anything out in the open and are nothing but worthless backstabbing scum.

lol ok my bad

They found two weapons in the whole village... and how many people were killed? Please read the reports before you spout off an "informed" opinion.

I noticed alot (myself included) of opinions that didn't agree with people attacking our service men and women have been collapsed. Why is that? What ever happened to freedom of speech? Or is it because I don't agree with you, then my opinion doesn't count? Hypocrits. It's a sad world we live in.

Kyle --

the ones who refuse to fight and sit back as honorable men and women go out and risk their lives so that you can keep those typing fingers alive

What kind of nonsense is this? Your participation in invading other countries and murdering the civilians does nothing except engender hatred for my country and spread terrorism. There is NOTHING whatsoever honorable about it, just as there is NOTHING whatsoever honorable about busting through doors in the middle of the night and gunning down defenseless women and children in cold-blooded mass murder.

Without groups like Wikileaks and Anon, I would not know that my military is torturing POW's (Yes, I know that we aren't at war, so they are "Insurgents") using legal loopholes to torture people and lying to American families about our own soldiers demises (Pat Tillman) and throwing American soldiers into the "City Dump". As a former "Regular Army" soldier, I am especially pissed about the complete lack of ethics in the treatment of our soldiers and lack of treatments for their OBVIOUS mental issues once out.

I am obviously offended at the killing of civilians, as far as someone commenting about Iraqis and Afghan's not doing anything about IED's, why would they? They are just as much targets by the enemies as by our own troops. Maybe you should see the civilian death tolls for these countries. We and the enemy are weeding them out.

The point is NOT what happened or why it happened in Afghanistan. The point is a group of people who think they are qualified to judge the legal system and take action on their judgement.

That has always been called a mob and they have committed a lynching.

Let's bring these people to justice and see if they can support their actions in front of their peers.

I think I could Judge the legal system, it's corrupted with Corporate money buying influence instead of real Justice. The man shot unarmed civilians, so to say he got his say in court is false, he got his say in a Military Court, that covered up his superiors ASSES.

Glen-1552358

"Anonymous" are a bunch of sniveling cowards!

Its pretty easy to call Anonymous a "bunch of sniveling cowards" when you do so anonymously, huh?

Here's a question - see if anybody's got the balls to give me a serious answer: WHY are so many comments supporting the Marines "collapsed by the community"? Are we that afraid of dissenting opinions?

I've got enough balls, and I'm a WOMAN.

They are collapsed because enough people do not approve of the cold-blooded murder of innocent women and children. And probably some of those people are also sick and tired of every day reading about yet another atrocity committed by a U.S. Marine psychopath.

The Few, The Proud, The Murderers???

Duty, Honor, Murder!!

If the American Imperialists were not Occupying an Sovereign Nation in the first place; maybe their Buddies would not be getting blown up by IED's.

What comes around, goes around.

@Foxdrake who stated:

It was only after assaulting the house from a far (standard procedure) did the marines find out that the houses were full of women and children

EVERY news agency and the soldiers lawyers have said that the women and children (& elderly man in wheelchair) were shot at close range. So, they were revenge killings - & for the posters who say that "bad people" hide behind women & children - I think they would see that - at CLOSE RANGE.

The "command" you all point out was one soldier in the group that did the killing - it was not some far away guy. This group of soldier-murderers DID NOT get hit by an IED that day - it was revenge

http://presstv.com/usdetail/224361.html

Citing doctors at Haditha’s hospital, The Washington Post reported, "Most of the shots ... were fired at such close range that they went through the bodies of the family members and plowed into walls or the floor."

The executions of 24 unarmed civilians were apparent retaliation for the death of Lance Cpl. Miguel Terrazas when a small Marine convoy hit a roadside bomb earlier that day. [later found to be a lie]

The Haditha Massacre did not become public until Time magazine ran a story in March 2006. Time had turned over the results of its investigation, including a videotape, to the US military in January. Only then did the military launch an investigation. These Marines "suffered a total breakdown in morality and leadership, with tragic results," a US official told the Los Angeles Times.

Murtha said, "Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them, and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood."

John Murtha is a former Marine and US Senator.....

So after looking at the video, the REAL people in the know - and a former Marine, declare it murder in cold blood - yet they get NO TIME?

IT WAS NOT AN ATTACK FROM A FAR - find ONE article (written after the truth came out (2006)) that says these people were murdered from "afar."

Cassie321 - you didn't answer my question. You have your opinions and I respect them, and your right to voice them, even if I don't agree with you. But your post doesn't address my question: Why "collapse" the opinions of those who don't agree with you?

i answered your question, because newsvine makes it too easy to do so

Try being sent to a hostile environment yourself and get back to us on that one, Ty. Being in the midst of it all is considerably more horrifying than your position of Armchair General.

That is why men of conscience refuse to fight in the first place. Following illegal orders is not an excuse for murder, no matter how hostile the environment you are in.

You are there by choice. The women, children and civilian men who got murdered had no choice.

No longer will corruption be able to run and hide face. The Internet, the end of ignorance, is here now. The great equalizer.

War is now voluntary. That means so is killing. Our 'leaders' made it so in order to save their own skins, and next generation, and so that nobody can say that the government made me do it. This is how responsibility become diluted and risks are spread over everybody's conscience. Most joining have no other options due to economy and would rather not kill for their daily bread. (this is usually where I talk about economic slavery). Trust me, the Ten Commandments (promises) spell it out quite clearly.

This guy may have gotten off easy, or not. His conscience will be with him for the rest of his life.

Great post Byron Raum

Texas,

But the fault lies with those cowards who lay the IUDs. The fault lies with those that hide behind kids to fight. They risk the lives of civilians - our marines do everything they can to not hurt the innocent.

But war is HELL.

And bad things happen to good people...

You don't think any fault lie with our lies do you. Some hide behind kids others hide behind guns and armor.

War is hell so don't go to hell. War is a bad thing so don't send good people into it and don't ever ask someone to do something you yourself would not do.

Modern warfare has been conducted to ensure economic entitlements and not for National defense. Modern warfare is more than ever connected to central banks and wealth redistribution for corporations in the business of war services and paraphernalia. An enemy is always needed and so therefor is created when needed.

@ Franco Relaxo

The true reason the kkk did everything in the open is because they were the police, CIA and the FBI wearing the sheets over their heads!! Therefore they were not going to arrest themselves! So this must mean that Anonymous are smart "we the people" and never should show their faces or come out into the open! You do see what the elected public servants are doing to "OCCUPY WALL STREET PROTESTERS!! Just my thoughts!!

agreed, which is exactly what made the KKK cowards, they attacked innocent people (with sheets over their heads) knowing that they're be no consequences, tell that to hdrider though, he seems to think it was because they were brave

Do what they do in the open and the enemies from within will throw the institution at you. That is how cowards work. Look at what they are doing to Assange and Manning.

Can not compare Anonymous with the kkk. The kkk was about hatred, separation, apartheid, race, terrorism.

Want governments to control everything done on the internet? Follow anonymous lead. A free net will be history.

cassie, so you feel you have the right to silence opinions that you disagree with?

it is a rare thing for me to report/attempt to collapse a comment unless it actually violates the newsvine COH. beyond that, you have the right to your opinion no matter how much I may disagree or agree with it. you don't have the right to silence dissenting opinions

@ Black Kettle & Sand Creek...lest we forget

I repeat from what I know of the case, the attacks were held at long range (I guess the meaning of long range is a question here?). They shot up the houses, they were told by command were full of gunmen. So from more than 50+ yards? they shot up the houses with machine guns ... then approached them for a search.

Perhaps they should have knocked on the door first but they were told and ordered to assault a hostile enemy position full of dudes with guns ... which turned out not to be the case.

Plus there where two "60 Minutes" pieces on the issues, one of which was an interview (the only one mind you) of the accused Wuterich.

Here are some articles I found that confirm this.

http://news.yahoo.com/marine-serve-no-time-iraqi-killings-case-224428172.html

Wuterich has acknowledged ordering his squad to "shoot first, ask questions later" after a roadside bomb took the life of a fellow Marine, but he said Tuesday he did not shoot any of the 10 women and children killed in nearby homes that he stormed with his men.

"The truth is: I never fired my weapon at any women or children that day," Wuterich told Jones.

http://www.france24.com/en/20120125-iraq-war-haditha-us-marine-frank-wuterich-abu-ghraib-sergeant?autoplay=1

Wuterich, in his pre-sentencing statement, said that when he gave that order, "the intent wasn't that they should shoot civilians. It was that they would not hesitate in the face of the enemy."

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/01/24/10226885-marine-to-serve-no-time-in-iraqi-killings-case

In the deal, Wuterich acknowledged that his orders misled his men to believe they could shoot without hesitation and not follow the rules of engagement that required troops to positively identify their targets before they raided the homes.

http://hotair.com/archives/2007/03/19/video-scott-pelley-grills-haditha-marine-frank-wuterich-on-60-minutes/

The mistake he made was assaulting the first house without being certain that is where the fire they took came from. Once the decision was made that those buildings represented the threat they were facing, the rest of the actions they took were brutal but proper. If Wuterich's story is true he may be guilty of a horrendous decision to assault the first building, and that may be Dereliction of Duty, but it is not Murder.

....

All of this sucks...but:

First, War happens. And when it does, it isn't clean, it's horrific. That is why war should be a last resort, not the first option this country makes it.

If anything, we're responsible (America - Americans) for letting this illegal and immoral war happen.

Second, Marines aren't a police force and shouldn't be "nation building." They are for nation DESTROYING and that might mean "shooting first and asking questions later." - NOT women and children after a rape fest mind you, but if in the process of killing the enemy (or attempting to), if women or children get caught as "collateral damage" we forgive because it's war and not an orderly exercise.

Then we examine their actions to make sure they weren't otherwise incompetent or reckless. Which, Wuterich's statement might of been ... it was callous but I am sure the adrenaline was affecting him.

The POLICE are suppose to ask questions first, second, third and then perhaps shoot in the leg after a failed taser attempt.

But not a Marine. He is there to kill.

yes but as a lot of hanged nazi's might tell you from beyond the grave, if you have a situation where the commander says "i didnt mean for them to do it, they misunderstood my orders" and then his troops say, "we thought we were supposed to do it, we misunderstood his orders" those two statements dont make the troops and the commander innocent because they both thought it was the others fault, instead they're all guilty, because they all knew no matter what the orders were that massacring unarmed civilians is a warcrime. i will definitely agree with you however that marines arent nation builders, or peace ambassadors, or goodwill givers or hearts and mind winners, they are our best killers, and should only be used as such, i agree wholeheartedly that sending marines into a hostile population with such an unclear mandate and lack of support was a massive failure on the part of the higher ups and on those in our gov who thought that we could do anything in Iraq other than start a civil war

I'm hearing two stories here:

One is where they are hit by an IED and told to engage a house with combatants inside by command - and that they shot it up from the outside. Kind of standard procedure in that case, but usually wouldn't result in a massacre of everyone inside unless they had some heavy hitters engage as well. If this was the case, definitely not their fault, sometimes you have to depend on the eyes of others and just go with that intel. You can't go second guessing every order. In this case, it wouldn't really be their fault.

The second story I'm hearing is one in which they went revenge-killing in CQB entries and clearing. Shooting folks at close-range. Obviously this should be prosecuted for what it is.... straight up murder.

The "shoot first ask questions later" command is such a cliche statement - that as a soldier I would have just taken that as "be on your toes" sort of pump-you-up lingo. I would not have taken it literally, I knew better than that. But then again, I knew plenty of soldiers who would have chosen to take that literally (although they knew better as well) because that gave them the opportunity to get their arab-hating rocks off at the expense of whomever gave them the command.

StoneCold --

Why "collapse" the opinions of those who don't agree with you?

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

They collapse the posts because they find support for the cold-blooded murder of defenseless women and children to be OFFENSIVE.

actually cassie though you and i agree on this issue i think its you who is being obtuse, the point is that the option to collapse comments is for comments that violate the rules of the board, not just any comment that you personally disagree with, this a place where people come to have a free exchange of ideas, the option to collapse comments is not for you to go post by post collapsing everyone you disagree with, you cant say their post is offensive just because you personally happen to disagree with them, (even if i too disagree with them, and many others disagree with them) they have to actually be violating the terms of newsvine. there is no censorship option in the little exclamation point

.

@Shuklack

"I'm hearing two stories here"

Maybe that's the issue here. If they went door to door, entered houses, identified women and children and then decided to shoot them...to get their collective rocks off (or to blow off stress) or to "get back at the Iraqis" or whatever....

I'd be calling for their conviction as well.

I have never read or heard that, except for in comment sections like this. I don't get my facts from the comments section. I get it from primary (interview) or secondary (reporters) sources.

I find it hard to believe that he was "acquitted" of everything (except a stupid comment) if he was identifying non-combatants and shooting them in the head at point blank rage as has been stated here.

Again ... under attack, rookies, told house hostile by command, ordered to assault, shot up from a distance, walked up, found women and children inside ... a major cluster F, not a war crime.

If there was a crime it was the LIE to the American people (and perhaps the willingness to believe the lie) that put these Marines in the situation in the first place.

All to make oil and war profits...that was the crime, that was the sit. But for that, those people would never have died.

Franko --

One has the option of collapsing a post because they find it of no value. What do you think that means? I suspect if we gather 10 people here and ask what it means, we'll get 10 different definitions.

In fact, I too find the excessive collapsing of posts annoying. I've noticed that it often allows a PC clique to, in effect, control the board--not to mention the fact that it makes it difficult to find your own post later to see if someone has responded to you.

I never collapse posts and would be fine with no post ever being collapsed. But you asked why people had done it in this case, and I told you why.

Cassie - No, I'm not being "obtuse". But once you (using the editorial "you" here, not referring to you personally) get into the habit of censoring/silencing dissenting opinions, you're heading down a slippery slope that violates one of the basic precepts of our Constitution.

There are a few issues that I'm passionate about, like gay rights and the Second Amendment, and many times I'll read a comment on one of these issues and I'll think: "Hey, this guy's really full of @!$%#." But that person has just as much right to express their opinion as I do. And it's almost always valuable to hear what the other side thinks.

As far as "no value" is concerned, that in itself is a value judgment, which I try to stay awa from.

A very wise (not obtuse) man - I think it was either Voltaire or Victor Mature - once said: "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Voting to collapse a comment is not censorship. Even if the comment is collapsed, you can read it and its thread by clicking on the collapse notification. What the voting does do is bring the "offensive" comment to the attention of the moderator. Your freedom of speech is a freedom from GOVERNMENT shutting down your expressions, not your peers or a blog.

"Voting to collapse a comment is not censorship."

Well now, that's true. But my original point was: Are we so afraid of dissenting opinions that we feel the need to "collapse" them? And isn't "offensive" a subjective value judgment in itself? For instance, if I say I support same-sex marriage, or abortion, that statement will be "offensive" to some people and not to others. Same thing if I say I'm against same-sex marriage or abortion.

Actually, I think we've become too afraid of "offending" anyone in our politically correct society.

all of you, for the most part, are a bunch of f'ing nerds sitting on a computer throwing your thoughts around like you f'ing been there. like you smelled war, like you tasted it, like you seen it first hand, you've touched it. but in reality most of you have not, and just because your a god damn "vet" doesn't make you a veteran of war it makes you a veteran of the military news flash the coast guard is considered veterans after they retire or get out.

as this trial progressed in four years, 3/5 got blown to smitherines, my best friend was kia by our own people, my kia to a landmine, my little brother was stepped on another one. you all sit there as judge and jury but 95% of you don't have a clue about what toll war does to your nerves.

i don't believe in killing innocent persons, but i have been there. you don't know who you can trust to be honest. i have patted down women and pulled command wire (for ied's) out other bras, purses. hell we found a kid with a backpack on with a couple grenades taped together with a cell phone wired into it luckily it didn't go off.

i lost 7 friends in 2006 when a 7ton was forced by a captain, who was the convoy commander, to cross a flooded river, swept the 7 ton down stream, drowned everyone and you know who went down for that? the assistant convoy commander, and enlisted marine. the captain went on to command troops and deploy as commander again.

get over yourselves. shut up.

Sounds like you should have given them swimming lessons.

Get over yourself.

Have you ever had enough independent thought to wonder why you were sent to fight and die in a foreign land which did not attack us?

Would you behave any differently if foreigners invaded the US looking for alleged terrorists?

The women and children were inside out of view, it was a attack from a far... He is a scapegoat for the command, bad guys were supposed to be in the buildings but were not... This article did not tell the whole story... So before you go calling him/them cowardly murderers, do some research and get some facts...

yes yes yes!!!!!!

Ty

Obviously you were there. Show us your footage that you shot.

So true, ClamChop! During Vietnam my USMC uncle said they had a saying: kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out. 'cause most of the VC didn't wear uniforms and had women and children of all ages fighting, so it was impossible to know who the enemy was. I suspect that the same holds true in the middle east.

@Ty, think for a second. Can you honestly say that in the same situation you would not have shot first and then asked questions later.

Gee Ty. I thought our current administration was Democrat! You just called our Govt Republican fascist cheerleaders. Can't have it both ways, my friend. You need to come up out of the basement once in a while. Fresh air is a good thing.

republican cheerleaders?! I see... you'll probably vote for Obama(big brother) again and complain about encroaching fascism. Tool

The ideology that WAR can be made to be civil is an absurdity. IN. A. WAR. F**CKED. UP. THINGS. HAPPEN. unfortunate but true.

Soldiers in the heat of battle may not always make the right decesion, but then again its war....

Calling anonymous cowards in an online forum, is the pot calling the kettle black you idiot. They keep their identities hidden to keep the government from throwing them in prison, not out of fear of morons like you who hide behind their keyboards. They are not petty thieves stealing credit card numbers and identities, they are hackers, and they are doing the world a favor by attacking the people who commit these atrocities, and try to cover them up. Anonymous has every right to air this, and to have done what they did.

jwoop66, democratic progressives encroach on our freedpom with velvet gloves "for our protection" and republicans encroach on our freedoms with a 16 lb sledgehammer and usually a cross

Ty is right, this was a cowardly revenge killing of innocents. Certain aspects of our media have whipped a very malleable segment of our population into a racial frenzy and this kind of behavior is the end result. When you dehumanize an entire population it gives our young men and women serving in the military the sense that they have a god given right to abuse, humiliate and even murder unarmed civilians.

I respect what Anonymous is doing, the people in charge of almost every nation have become corrupt beyond any comparison I can find in all of history. If the world leaders think they can continue this unregulated crime spree without any repercussions then they will never stop. It is time for the people to rise up and take back their freedom. We the people do not start the wars, but we the people, the 99%, pay the price for the silly little greed and envy games of the 1%. We pay the price in the blood of our children who are sent to fight and die in the desert so Haliburton and Exxon can make record breaking profits plundering other peoples resources.

I am sick to death of our politicians and ceo's pocketing billion$ off the suffering of innocents while at the same time micromanaging our lives to the point the point they even want to tell us who we can have sex with and what we can drink and smoke. It is time to hold these criminals accountable for every drop of blood that has been spilt in the name of profit.

Ty, please tell us something. Just who do you not consider fascist, other than those like you who share your own particular narrow minded views?

@Jeremy, No, actually they have ZERO right to do what they did. They breached client/lawyer confidentiality! That is a CRIME. They have also leaked classified documents...that, my fine friend is called TREASON, and they could be hanged for it!

Personally, I think ALL computer hackers are the scum of the earth, and deserve to have every charge prosocuters can dream up thrown at them. The only people worse than hackers are the skeavy sons of motherless goats that put out computer viruses and stuff like that.

toyfox, would you consider it a treasonous offense to leak the classified name of a CIA agent to the press, putting her life and the lives of her contacts at risk as well as the security of our nation?

Dick Cheney is a traitor and should be held accountable for his actions

No one can make remarks until they have either been there or been affected by war. One thing, let the females live and tomorrow they will appreciate the marines enough to blow them to hell.

It was that way in Nam-- at least, that is what my husband said. After all, he had two tours there. Wish he had told me more, but Agent Orange left him a present which he has taken to his grave.

In WW2, we killed before we got killed-- even if those we killed were women or children. They were the enemy. The enemy didn't give a flip about innocent women or children of our allies. I often wonder what became of my school teachers and my friends who were left in the Philippines when war broke out.

Er, Fed Up, he pleaded guilty. What Anonymous is protesting is the wrist-slap sentence form mass murder.

"...making poor decisions based on FEAR". Really? That did not stop the Nuremberg trials after world war two, did it? Americans trying others = guilty. Americans trying Americans = not guilty.

hey moto spyder, tell me where you are, I will come say right to your face, that these marines are criminals and murderers. I will make my complaint right to you. Stop hiding behind your momma's skirt. I am an ex marine, and even I know these guys were wrong. You all try to justify anything our soldiers do and claim you are patriotic? Since when does patriotism mean slaughtering innocent women and children? Since when does patriotism mean covering up the truth? Since when does it mean letting the guilty go unpunished?

Jerry: I realize what they're protesting.... Do they fully understand the collateral damages of war? Fear does horrible things to some soldiers along with fatigue.... The enemy these soldiers fight wears no uniform and hides amongst women and children. I don't condone what happened whatsoever, but I realize there are many factors to consider. Those responsible for this war(s) reside in America's Three Branches of Oligarchy......

P.S. All you friggin' armchair warriors need to get on the plane over there and make a difference........

Motor spyder mouth:

Soldier:

a person who serves in an army; a person engaged in military service.
2.
an enlisted man or woman, as distinguished from a commissioned officer: the soldiers' mess and the officers' mess.

3.
a person of military skill or experience: George Washington was a great soldier.

4.
a person who contends or serves in any cause: a soldier of the Lord.

5.
Also called button man. Slang . a low-ranking member of a crime organization or syndicate.

Jeremy, please go jump off of the nearest 10+ story building. Thank you.

I'm with you jeremy-2034209,

These patriotic (more like idiotic) cowards are actually defending murders of women and children. Then they want us to kiss their a$$ for "protecting our freedom"?

Wow, such backwards thinking up in this place.

You guys want really fight for freedom, go attack North Korea or Russia. Oh wait, these countries actually have Nuclear weaponry.

I make no excuses for the killing of innocents, and some of the marines were convicted of revenge killing. However, unless I was there. Unless I am on the jury listening to the evidence. Unless I am the one that has to walk in their shoes and confront what they confronted, I will not be second guessing the finding of the court and what these guys dealt with at the time.

If we really want to be outraged, be outraged that so many of our young men and women were killed and injured, so many iraqis were killed and wounded, and our economy was destroyed based on absolutely fraudulent pretenses.

Those that brought us this war enriched themselves and their friends enormously at our financial expense and at the expense of those that had to pay the ultimate price of their lives. Where is justice for that?

We will not forgive, we will not forget...we bring the Epic Ownage...lol.

People act as if Anony is an organized group when speaking about them. It's often not even the same people twice.

And the commentor above me is correct in questioning whether defending these war crimes is "patriotic". In fact, it isn't patriotic...it's nationalistic.

Nationalism bad, patriotism good. They aren't the same thing.

A band I liked back in the day had an album out that explained it nicely (they were called The Vandals):

"Hitler bad, Vandals good"

Good album. Hitler was a nationalist. Reich means "state" in German. Patriots don't swear allegiance to a state...they swear allegiance to their fellow countrymen. There is a huge difference.

Zombie nationalism leads to fascism. Patriotic dissent is patriotic.

Long live Anony, and long live the American people and their philosophy...but die die die nationalism, war crimes, and fascism.

Yeah, Idiot; "@!$%# happens" [it's a natural function of the body]; but Murder is Murder whever it happens. How would you feel if someone murdered your family- 'In the Name of War'? You're pathetic!

Ummmm...French Connection: Wasn't the war brought TO US on 9/11???? Remember?? We had over 3,000 casualities, of all nationalities, genders, ages? Ring a bell?

Obama probably would have called them up and said , "That wasn't very nice of you. Whatever we did, we promise we don't do it again. Sorry. BUT reconstruction of th WTC and Pentagon and the big hole out in PA will create jobs. Stop the presses, I just CREATED jobs."

Aggie, all I can say is "idiotic nonsense." Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11... ring a bell???

Descrs...

You're right, Iraq didn't any anyhing to do with it....it was the Taliban/Al Quaida IN Iraq. Same with Afghanitstan...Afghanistan didn't have anything to do with it either...it was Taliban/Al Quaida IN Afghanistan. So by your arguement, then we shouldn't be sending Drones bombing inside Pakistan. Parkistan didn't have "anything to do with" 9/11.

I really get tired of hearing things like "your where not there" "they are fighting for our freedom"

First of all they are not fighting for our freedom they are fighting for a paycheck. no one asked them to join the military and they sure as hell did not do it for me. I never asked them to. They know the risk involved in joining and rules of combat so don't complain about it. And if they know what they are getting into there is no excuse.

Secondly i am allowed to have my opinion whether i severed or not so is everyone else on this forum. 90% of the people saying "you weren't there!" Well you weren't there either so dont give me that bs excuse!

Thirdly we have men and women in police uniform who also dont know the difference between a normal civilian and one that wants to harm them. When i swat team goes into a house full of drug dealers or criminals they too dont know who is armed and who is not. How often are they killing women and children?

If a swat team burst into your house killed your whole family and said sorry we made a mistake it was the wrong house. And they got a slap on the wrist you would be ok with that since its hard for them to tell the difference between a criminal and civilian?

I can guarantee you if a police officer or swat team killed 20 women and children because one of there swat buddies got shot or killed by some one in a neighbor hood. They would get the death penility. But Americans are so desensitized about people in other countries that people on this forum make excuses for them its insane most of the people on here are not even acting like they where human beings.

Bottom line we invaded them they did not invade us. Its our responsibility to keep the innocent safe and there is no arguing that fact. We are supposed to be there liberators at least that's what we tell ourselves and that's the BS we where sold. There is no excuse for killing Women and Children we would not except that in our own country and we should not stand for it in countries over seas.

Oh, and Aggie there was plenty more reason to be doing strikes in Pakistan. Dur, remember that Osama bin Laden guy? You know, the whole darn reason we started the stupid wars? So you have no problem with Bush forgetting all about Al Qaeda and going into the unrelated country of Iraq. But you have a problem with our very effective President Obama taking out Osama and the Al Qaeda leadership with drones (without our people having to fight and die)?

And yes Pakistan had plenty to do with 9/11 since the terrorists trained in camps there.

The alleged "terrorists".

The silver lining to truth the government hides from you being exposed is the whistle blowers go to prison?!?

War is Peace, Slavery is Freedom, Ignorance is Strength, Interventions are Humanitarian, Pepper Spray is a Vegetable. Orwell 2012!

You sir, are a zombie nationalist. Go read about fascism in Europe if you want to see what your blind allegience to the state to the point of overlooking war crimes leads to.

And all you curse word users, the government is going to limit free speech because of YOU.

What non-sense logic. Exercising rights, natural rights, to the truth and speech DO NOT make convenient excuses for tyranny imposed to squelch such exercises.

Anon is not responsible for crackdowns on the internet...the government tyrants are.

I'm glad that I wasn't the only one who saw that. The fighting got pretty intense when I was in Viet Nam, but we all knew where the line was drawn. When Lt. William Calley was sent to prison for murdering civilians, our own officers said that he should have been shot. You don't kill unarmed civilians. Period.

I, too, am a Marine. I agree that this Marine is guilty. He should be punished. That is not the point. The problem is that Anonymous and those like it are not only cowards, but they are cyber terrorists. They should be shut down, tried for terrorism and jailed (I recommend Gitmo for a time).

It is my hope that all those who leak secrets and create cyber viruses, etc, be in irons. YOU are the scumbags.

You are NOT doing the righteous thing. You do NOT have "right" on your side. You can call everyone who disagrees with you awful names, but that changes nothing. You continue to be lower than dirt and YOU KNOW IT!!

You should be ashamed of yourselves. I'll bet your mommy doesn't know what you're doing. You know this reflect badly on your parents.

SHAME, SHAME!!

Thank you James (and Jerry)... any good Marine knows that just because you put on the uniform it does not make you a saint. Those people were human beings, and they deserved better. Orders or not, he did what he did... thankfully, most soldiers carry out their orders like the professionals they are expected to be!

marine, he is guilty of saving his men,period! i am army and could see myself doing the same thing if one of my men were just killed by an IED, lets not forget most of these inocent victims can but wont stop an IED from taking out troops. they know its there but choose to do nothing, im sorry but i support his decision under the circumstances.

Why are we all so fast to condemn Anonymous... I can feel the hatred. Where is your anger toward the corporate cowards that steal from pensions, or the banks that foreclose on homes that are now worth only a fraction of the mortgage owed, or a government the has been systemically shredding the constitution for the last several decades??? Why aren't any of you pissed off about that??? It is breathtakingly amazing to me just how blind we have all become to the real crimes being committed against society at large... and this is what Anonymous is trying to get you to see. Wake up!!!

Reno48-I condemn them for being so gutless. The Mexican cartels kills tens of thousands of people a year...anonymous pussed out when the cartel threatened them. Then anonymous comes along and targets someone like this that can't threaten them. I dislike this marines actions as much as anonymous does, but I have zero respect for anonymous because they are gutless bullies who lack the strength of their convictions. You can't sit around claiming a moral higher ground then back down when you're needed the most just because someone fights back. We need a new anonymous that actually stands for what they believe in.

so, mr spyder, by your words, the injustice done by the completely incapable government we have should be kept in the dark? i think your a pot calling the kettle black with your use of the "C' word there. if you are willing to stay silent during the darkness that enshrouds a once great nation, then YOU are the cowards. brainless punk.

Why won't you call him a scum bag? Is there a certain loyalty you feel because he's a marine? Or because you believe there are others involved?

HINA RUSSIA how about doing something productive ya little SHNITS

Willypetr656 - as someone said before... A vigilante by any other name is still a vigilante. Anonymous has no right to take justice into their own hands.

Those are certainly Americans occupying Wall Street, Boston, and Oakland... those were American kids getting pepper spayed at UC Davis... if by "order" you really mean "police state" then I guess we are headed down a path to extreme order. Just won't be the United States anymore... it will be another fascist state where decent is met with brutality!

There is no agenda...it's not even the same people twice in most cases. It's more of random crowd.

Look up "voluntary botnet".

D McMillen

Hey buddy wanna buy some tinfoil? I have a line on some real quality rolls of the stuff. You can make a great hat out of it!

(shhh nobody tell him I donate all proceeds to the secret "leftist agenda")

That very well could be true. I wasn't there so I don't know what happened. I certainly wouldn't judge any US servicemember from a story on MSNBC.

Occupy movement is backed by Obeyme/Soros/DNC.... do more research Sport...

You either get your info from the back of a Froot Loops box, or NBC...

So many Fox Newts here...

Here's a way for you Teapublicans to reconcile your PROLIFEness with regard to these deaths to the Planned Parenthood story....

Just say, "Gee, you know, when women walk into Planned Parenthood, things "just happen" in the heat of canceer screening.

Too much?

It works for you when you try to justify or glorify the killing of ACTUAL babies in another country, why not for women's decisions about how to handle their pregnancies in this country?

Have a nice day.

I agree!

If you are a Vet (and I doubt it), 911 had NOTHING to do with us being in Iraq, and following orders is not LAWFUL, when you know the order to be wrong...

The horror story of Haditha in 2005 - and others like it - are exactly why this country should not place our young men in this situation in the first place. Iraq has been a tragedy of our own making - both for us, and for the Iraqi civilians that we loosed our Marines on for the last nine years.

The rate of civilians being killed wasn't much better before we came in, Hussein killed as indiscriminately as Al Qaeda. Anyone who thinks the Marines were loosed on the Iraqi civilians and are responsible for all of the civilian deaths in that country is a liar, a coward, and a tool.

It's 9/11........2001. NOT 911. Is Pearl Harbor 127? No it's 12/7. Why do you try to conflate 9/11 with 911?

9/11 was a false PRETEXT for us going into Iraq. Bush knew it when he lied us into going there.

This human shield "excuse" for murdering civilians is ridiculous. If you invade someone else's country, under false pretenses at that, and then feel that you have every right to kill civilians when you walk into one of their "freedom fighters' " traps, then you are the ultimately ignorant TOOL. Saying that everyone in the neighborhood "knew" the IED was there is just a LIE, we tell ourselves to "justify"

It's 9/11........2001. NOT 911. Is Pearl Harbor 127? No it's 12/7. Why do you try to conflate 9/11 with 911?

nitpick on petty bull@!$%# much?

such obsessive-compulsive behaviour pretty much invalidates the rest of your rant

The desire to obscure WHEN THE ATTACK on 9/11/2001 took place, is not a petty concern. Referring to it as 911 seems to serve that purpose alone. No OCD involved.

Answer the question. Why would you think it makes sense to conflate 911 with 9/11?

Your own stupidity "invalidates" most of your "rants".

And what makes you an expert on being a coward? Have you ever been in the military? And if you have, then how dare you make such stupid comments. But I thinking you would not have made it in.

Yeah, it's doomed. So, move. Go to Europe or China or Korea or Mexico. Just get the eff out!! You aren't doing anyone any favors by sitting on your duff and complaining about people who actually do something.

I'll bet you are even in the Occupy circus. Sit around and do nothing, but complain about others who work, etc. You people are silly and deluded.

Your opinions mean nothing.

Yes, with people like Bruce around it does look grim, hopefully Bruce will leave the country...

And that was the excuse in Vietnam!!! Been there and can't forget. A**holes are A*ssholes and this one is no different. Killing civilians is unwarranted! Most of this type of person would be criminal as a civilian and probably were remembered as a bully in school; but don't worry...

To those advocating that the murders of those women and children was justified because they didn't tell the US military where IED's are, try putting yourself in their shoes. What do you think would happen to them if they were to tell the US where the IED's are? They'd be killed by the other side of course. Yes, war is hell, but there are rules, which the US helped to establish. And although I have never been in the military, I have a right to an opinion because they represent all of us. Behaviour like this and peeing on corpses and being stupid enough to take pictures of it affects all US citizens because it helps terrorist organizations recruit and gives crazy people a reason to attack us.

And to those who tell people with differing opinions to leave the country, um that's why America is so great - we are ALL entitled to express our opinion. If we get to the point where we all have to believe the same thing we might as well be China.

And to the many veterans who have posted above, thank you for your service and for your intelligent comments.

lololololloloolllol!!!111!

I'LL SAY IT TO YOUR FACE! COME SAY IT TO MY FACE!!!!1

looloololoolollololololOLO!Lo!L1o!LO1